Revising strategies on Delaware waterfront

[harryk]

Read more about the Delaware River waterfront in my book, Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront, issued in 2011 by the History Press (see Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront | Facebook)... My next book, by the way, will be about Northern Liberties (Northern Liberties, Philadelphia: A Brief History).

[radiocolin]

Read more about the Delaware River waterfront in my book, Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront, issued in 2011 by the History Press (see Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront | Facebook)... My next book, by the way, will be about Northern Liberties (Northern Liberties, Philadelphia: A Brief History).

You have 6 posts, all of them about your book. Reported for spam.

[harryk]

Not SPAM (learn what "spam" is). Each message is different and relates to the subject matter at hand

[Jayfar]

You have 6 posts, all of them about your book. Reported for spam.

Definitely not spam. If you realized who Harry is you wouldn't said that.

[DCnPhilly]

Inga just wrote a piece about a new building proposed by the bridge, blasting its suburban design and lack of retail space. I appreciate her passion for recreating an urban space, but it isn't as easy as simply requiring urban design. The fact is the city destroyed any urbanism on the river when it bulldozed it for 95. Requiring retail space means nothing if the area's tenants are drawn to its convenient parking and suburban landscape. You can't choose which businesses rent that retail space. The market does that, and at this point you'd wind up with vacant storefronts and crappy dollar stores. While the proposal isn't glamorous or urban, it will put more people on the river justifying the need for more urban designs in the future.

On another note, I spent the week in Savannah, and although its much smaller than Philly, its position as a major port built around the same time showed remarkable parallels. The only difference is they didn't replace their version of Delaware Avenue with an interstate and a wide boulevard. Our waterfront used to be lined with warehouses, factories, and steep staircases leading to Delaware Avenue. That's all still on Savannah's waterfront and they've all been refitted with shops, bars, and apartments. It's a tourist hell, but a very successful one. It was interesting to see what probably would have been if 95 was put through NJ instead of the city.

[thoth]

One of the most interesting things about Buenos Aires (non sequitur, I know, hold on) is that they never totally moved their port facilities away from their downtown. They just pushed them into more modern facilities immediately North and South of their version of Center City, somewhat like Tioga and South Phila, but closer to the core. While they've done a better job of rebuilding the reclaimed land from the old port, they never built a riverfront highway, like we did (although they tried), so all of the cargo traffic from both of the new ports gets shoved onto the BA equivalent of Delaware Ave. Check it out:
Buenos Aires - Google Maps

I've been there, and believe me, Delaware would be a lot worse if you had dozens of tractor trailers rushing by at a million miles an hour trying to get to the closest highway. Old Savannah is relatively small in comparison to their sprawling municipality and they were more able to push their port facilities wayyyy outside of the old part of town. I don't know if the same was true for Phila given the existence of the navy yard and the difficultly in placing modern ports much farther upriver.

Inga just wrote a piece about a new building proposed by the bridge, blasting its suburban design and lack of retail space. I appreciate her passion for recreating an urban space, but it isn't as easy as simply requiring urban design. The fact is the city destroyed any urbanism on the river when it bulldozed it for 95. Requiring retail space means nothing if the area's tenants are drawn to its convenient parking and suburban landscape. You can't choose which businesses rent that retail space. The market does that, and at this point you'd wind up with vacant storefronts and crappy dollar stores. While the proposal isn't glamorous or urban, it will put more people on the river justifying the need for more urban designs in the future.

On another note, I spent the week in Savannah, and although its much smaller than Philly, its position as a major port built around the same time showed remarkable parallels. The only difference is they didn't replace their version of Delaware Avenue with an interstate and a wide boulevard. Our waterfront used to be lined with warehouses, factories, and steep staircases leading to Delaware Avenue. That's all still on Savannah's waterfront and they've all been refitted with shops, bars, and apartments. It's a tourist hell, but a very successful one. It was interesting to see what probably would have been if 95 was put through NJ instead of the city.

[DCnPhilly]

One of the most interesting things about Buenos Aires (non sequitur, I know, hold on) is that they never totally moved their port facilities away from their downtown. They just pushed them into more modern facilities immediately North and South of their version of Center City, somewhat like Tioga and South Phila, but closer to the core. While they've done a better job of rebuilding the reclaimed land from the old port, they never built a riverfront highway, like we did (although they tried), so all of the cargo traffic from both of the new ports gets shoved onto the BA equivalent of Delaware Ave. Check it out:
Buenos Aires - Google Maps

I've been there, and believe me, Delaware would be a lot worse if you had dozens of tractor trailers rushing by at a million miles an hour trying to get to the closest highway. Old Savannah is relatively small in comparison to their sprawling municipality and they were more able to push their port facilities wayyyy outside of the old part of town. I don't know if the same was true for Phila given the existence of the navy yard and the difficultly in placing modern ports much farther upriver.

Oh yeah, I know 95 was a necessary evil. I noticed that even Savannah struggles with crosstown traffic on their equivalent to Front Street. I can't imagine the nightmare that Delaware Avenue would be without 95. If it were in NJ it would only service thru traffic, not local. Even better public transportation would do nothing for commercial traffic.

It's a moot point now, but I think Philadelphia could have done a better job considering the area's architectural infrastructure either by using an elevated freeway or a narrower freeway that could have saved more of the warehouses. I'm not sure exactly where the demolished buildings were positioned but I have to imagine they could have saved more than they did. I think at the time no one ever imagined factories could be reused, and with industry shifting north and south they saw the buildings as useless, and they probably would have been for a good 20 years.

[kidphilly]

RFP goes out for Spring Garden Connector project, plus other riverfront project updates | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[thetalkingmule]

I used to have no reason to be along the waterfront, now Morgan's Pier is there and I go all the time. If Sugarhouse were an interesting complex with a boardwalk instead of a slot barn, I'd go there a lot too. All you need is quality entertainment/parks and people will use the waterfront. Let it grow on it's own.

How is it "hard" to get across Delaware Ave?

[TLP]

How is it "hard" to get across Delaware Ave?

Six lanes of 40mph+ traffic. Little tree cover or any sort of pedestrian destination along most of it. Doesn't exactly scream "friendly neighborhood street", eh?

It's *possible* to cross Delaware Ave, but why would you want to? Or, why would you want to be there in the first place? That's the problem.

[thoth]

I used to have no reason to be along the waterfront, now Morgan's Pier is there and I go all the time. If Sugarhouse were an interesting complex with a boardwalk instead of a slot barn, I'd go there a lot too. All you need is quality entertainment/parks and people will use the waterfront. Let it grow on it's own.

How is it "hard" to get across Delaware Ave?

Eh, Del Ave isn't exactly easy to cross even if it is possible. But I think your initial point is correct that "if you build it they will come". People want to be near the river, even if they have to cross a multi-lane boulevard, but you gotta give them something to do there. Keep churning out apts and putting commercial out there and you won't even have to worry about doing some kind of goofy "pedestrianization" project. At least until drunk people start getting clipped by cars. You might even suck some of the crud out of OC and put them somewhere where they'll have a harder time bothering people.

[radiocolin]

Six lanes of 40mph+ traffic. Little tree cover or any sort of pedestrian destination along most of it. Doesn't exactly scream "friendly neighborhood street", eh?

It's *possible* to cross Delaware Ave, but why would you want to? Or, why would you want to be there in the first place? That's the problem.

Which is why proposals that involve tearing down 95 and using Delaware Ave for that traffic make no sense to me. Do people want it to be pedestrian-friendly or not?

[Voodoo]

Which is why proposals that involve tearing down 95 and using Delaware Ave for that traffic make no sense to me. Do people want it to be pedestrian-friendly or not?

I would be in favor of both losing 95 and narrowing Delaware Ave. Perhaps a parallel (city-scaled) street could be added between Front & Delaware. It would be a traffic nightmare for a while, but eventually traffic will find another route to their destination.

All vehicles have drivers.
Most drivers have brains.
Most of the brains will instruct their drivers to steer their vehicles to an alternate route.

Center City should not be a shortcut from Trenton to Wilmington. Traffic will find another way. It's not as stupid as most people think. Carmageddon is just a tall-tale to frighten little children.

[radiocolin]

Center City should not be a shortcut from Trenton to Wilmington. Traffic will find another way. It's not as stupid as most people think. Carmageddon is just a tall-tale to frighten little children.

People who are in favor of tearing down 95 know that everyone will find a separate route. People who aren't know that you can't just rip out 3 miles of THE north-south artery on the eastern seaboard without catastrophe.

The answer, of course, lies in the middle.

[Voodoo]

you can't just rip out 3 miles of THE north-south artery on the eastern seaboard

Washington Ave to Vine Street.

[Titus]

Sheer idiocy.

[Bleeper]

I would be in favor of both losing 95 and narrowing Delaware Ave. Perhaps a parallel (city-scaled) street could be added between Front & Delaware. It would be a traffic nightmare for a while, but eventually traffic will find another route to their destination.

All vehicles have drivers.
Most drivers have brains.
Most of the brains will instruct their drivers to steer their vehicles to an alternate route.

Center City should not be a shortcut from Trenton to Wilmington. Traffic will find another way. It's not as stupid as most people think. Carmageddon is just a tall-tale to frighten little children.

Thats a critical artery that allows people to work and play in Center City, go to ballgames, go to Atlantic City, south jersey and Shore Points. Thank goodness for 295 and the NJ Turnpike otherwise Wilmington to Tenton would be a bottleneck all day long.

On a side issue it should be discussed how Philadelphia can get some of this massive DC to NY tourist traffic to come thru and stop in Philly instead of making a bee-line over the Del Memorial Bridge. There are several Bus outfits that shuttle tourists strictly between the 2 cities. DCtoNY.com have like 7 departures(each way) a day on the weekends and they are booked solid. WashtoNY.com is another outfit. If you've ever been down in Newardk De it is staggering how much traffic bypasses Wilm-Phil-Trenton. For every 1 car taking 95 N there are 10 that take 295 thru NJ.


back to improving the waterfront. The only logical solution is capping 95 from South to Market. Its already capped from Chestnut to Sansom and Dock Street to Pine. Just need to finish the puzzle.

Cap Market to Chestnut(2 blocks)
Cap Sansom to Dock(2 blocks)
Pine to SOuth(2 blocks).

That seems very doable to me.

[Voodoo]

back to improving the waterfront.

Oh god. A freaking Bleeper reply. <facepalm>

I would love to see it capped, but it's just not going to happen. In lue of that I'd like to see it removed, but that's also unlikely. (I'm a realist) The rest of your post is nothing but grade school drivel..

I don't give a crap about Atlantic City. I don't care how vehicles get from Wilmington to Trenton. I know what portions are capped. I was a part of the fight to get the exiting cap so spare me your kindergarden education. Traffic is not as stupid as you people think it is. (Unless you happen to be on the road)

[eldondre]

PlanPhilly | Engineering work soon to begin for 8-acre park atop I-95, Columbus Boulevard

The park would sit on a structure that expands the existing partial cap of I-95, which covers the highway from Front to Columbus, and from Chestnut Street just about half way to Walnut Street.

The study and design work will also examine:

•A large, mixed-use development in what is now a Market Street parking lot. Additional space would be created by removing the Market Street scissor ramp structure.
•The extension of the South Street pedestrian bridge, which now ends on the west side of Columbus Blvd., to the southwest corner of the great water basin.
•Mixed-use development, including residences and restaurant barges, in and around the basin.

[Titus]

At this point it seems beggars can't be choosers - so this looks awesome.