Revising strategies on Delaware waterfront

[FatPants]

Did I advocate for spending these dollars here? I'm just pointing out what is in the report.

[desolate]

Did I advocate for spending these dollars here? I'm just pointing out what is in the report.

I just like to point out the ROI of any of these Praxis designs.

They all put the cart before the horse.

Del Ave isn't lively becuase of a lot of reasons, but access is NOT one of them.

It's a pschological barrier not a physical one.

All you need to do is not control the zoning so much, and you may have seen some development already.

Currently there is so much restrictive zoning, with layer upon layer more to be added...

No one will likely ever touch it for a long time.

Not even after building billions more in repairs (they already built Penn's Landing and did a complete rebuild of Delaware Ave to add landscaping in the 1990's)

And all we got was even more "nightlife overlays" that kill or stunt the most likely projects.


The locals made thier voice heard and the desings are based on their limited worldview that everything should resemble Rittenhouse Square on the river, small low to mid density housings.

When it really should be where you put your nightclubs, casinos, theatres, bars, etc... because it isn't next to houses.

THat's why there's Dave N Busters, the Riverplex, all those shuttered nightclubs.

and the view of Camden sucks. It will never be plesant to live, to much noise, traffic.

and the Praxis solution is to remove the traffic, damage the retail, to turn the area into a new neighborhood in a city of blighted underused neighborhoods.

[kidphilly]

On the Light rail line if ever built I still dont understand why it would go up market St. Why have so many redundant lines on Market - It seems like it would make so much more sense to run this up Spring Garden (Major stops at the SG MFL stop, BSL at Broad) and all the way to the Art Museum. Maybe I am missing something but does this not make for great connectivity there. Also why not then another line Up Washington to maybe eventually connect with South and into the Medical Complex at UCity - This would create rail connections for a much wider footprint in the extended CC area.

[desolate]

On the Light rail line if ever built I still dont understand why it would go up market St. Why have so many redundant lines on Market - It seems like it would make so much more sense to run this up Spring Garden (Major stops at the SG MFL stop, BSL at Broad) and all the way to the Art Museum. Maybe I am missing something but does this not make for great connectivity there. Also why not then another line Up Washington to maybe eventually connect with South and into the Medical Complex at UCity - This would create rail connections for a much wider footprint in the extended CC area.

None of the lines you mention let convention people get to Sugahouse.

That's all they want.

[hammersklavier]

One-seat rides trump connections+frequency in transportation planning around here. Connections+frequency build a better, more robust transit network in the long run, however. (See Human Transit.)

There were pretty much zero zoning controls being enforced on the Delaware riverfront for many years. That's how we got the Boring Boxes down in South Philly. But there has been very little development along the Central Delaware riverfront anyway. Arguably, developers have been trained to respond to zoning controls for so long now that when presented without any, they don't know where to begin. Let's try and see if some more controls can begin to influence development (something other than pie-in-the-sky large-scale proposals) before writing this experiment off as lost.

[kidphilly]

None of the lines you mention let convention people get to Sugahouse.

That's all they want.

Well then just have those Jitneys that loop around the city empty fill that role - The conventioneers will take a cab most likely anyway - Honestly who cares about the Sugar House, lets fix the city

[FatPants]

Anyone who claims that the waterfront trolley project is about getting people to Sugarhouse is basically admitting that they know nothing about the project.

[desolate]

Anyone who claims that the waterfront trolley project is about getting people to Sugarhouse is basically admitting that they know nothing about the project.

The Trolley is to move Conventioneers to the Casino.

Period.

It serves zero purpose, except it's easy to sell to state politicians, and is copied/covered by an expensive heavy rail line (Market Frankford Line from City Hall to Girard) and duplicate bus service (25 other routes).

They've already built the track section at Frankford so the 15 can serve the casino as well.


Anyone who doesn't think it's for the casino ...well. please explain any benefit to putting light rail on top of a subway to serve subway stations.

[eldondre]

Anyone who claims that the waterfront trolley project is about getting people to Sugarhouse is basically admitting that they know nothing about the project.

it's quite obviously designed to shuttle people to the casinos (one of which was never built). one would hope that people in the real world have moved on

anyways, thought this was of interest
THE FOLLOWING PROPERTIES ARE AVAILABLE FOR SALE. PLEASE SEND INQUIRIES TO PUBLICPROPERTY@PHILA.GOV.
626 North Delaware Avenue [$1,400,000.00]
City of Philadelphia | Public Property Listings

[FatPants]

[QUOTE=eldondre;393778]it's quite obviously designed to shuttle people to the casinos (one of which was never built). one would hope that people in the real world have moved on

Well, you seem to know best.

[eldondre]

[QUOTE=FatPants;393846]

it's quite obviously designed to shuttle people to the casinos (one of which was never built). one would hope that people in the real world have moved on

Well, you seem to know best.

it seems to me that the 15 will have a problem. why not route the waterfront lrt as far as allegheny replacing the 15. to pr...which simply cant compete because it requires a transfer to cc. as it is, as desolate points out, it doesnt address any real problems.

[eldondre]

Philadelphia Live Arts and Philly Fringe plans whet DRWC appetites | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[DCnPhilly]

it's quite obviously designed to shuttle people to the casinos (one of which was never built). one would hope that people in the real world have moved on

YAY, Des and El agree on something!

I really don't give a sh*t, I just wish the city would admit it. If SugarHouse wants a lightrail to ferry people to the casino, they should be the ones paying for it. I think anyone financially in favor of the casinos was saying this five years ago: if the casinos want to be here, lock down some caveats that require them to contribute to the city's infrastructure. If naysayers weren't so busy fighting against an inevitability, we could have made SugarHouse and Foxwoods flip the bill on a whole slew of waterfront improvements.

[phillyaggie]

Philadelphia Live Arts and Philly Fringe plans whet DRWC appetites | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

I was marveling at that building while jogging past it some time ago and wondering what it might take for someone to put it to productive use. Looks like someone was thinking along the same lines. Sounds interesting. And goes to show how public investment in some good amenities can leverage into a lot more private investment.

[desolate]

YAY, Des and El agree on something!

I really don't give a sh*t, I just wish the city would admit it. If SugarHouse wants a lightrail to ferry people to the casino, they should be the ones paying for it. I think anyone financially in favor of the casinos was saying this five years ago: if the casinos want to be here, lock down some caveats that require them to contribute to the city's infrastructure. If naysayers weren't so busy fighting against an inevitability, we could have made SugarHouse and Foxwoods flip the bill on a whole slew of waterfront improvements.

Sugahouse replaced a very expensive Sewer outflow as part of their construction.

Just sayin...they built that and a waterfront path.

and donated several million to the local neighborhood for their rec centers.

[eldondre]

"Pre-development" work to begin at Festival Pier incinerator site | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[radiocolin]

I like the giant grass lot that spans from 95 to the waterfront. Because we don't have enough giant grass fields at the Independence National Historic Grass Field Collection.

[kidphilly]

I like the giant grass lot that spans from 95 to the waterfront. Because we don't have enough giant grass fields at the Independence National Historic Grass Field Collection.

I disagree - this will actually the waterfront directly to the neighborhood and can be a better gathering place than any of the concrete disasters there currently - the key is it also pans DE Ave

[radiocolin]

I disagree - this will actually the waterfront directly to the neighborhood and can be a better gathering place than any of the concrete disasters there currently - the key is it also pans DE Ave

Whether they're made of grass or concrete, big giant open fields don't attract people. Who wants to be in the middle of an expanse with no shade in July or August?

[gren]

I like the giant grass lot that spans from 95 to the waterfront. Because we don't have enough giant grass fields at the Independence National Historic Grass Field Collection.

Independence Mall is for views and the Penn's Landing proposal is for connections/concerts. I think if they do a good job on the other things that bring residents and consumers to the waterfront then an occasionally used grassy field will be a great thing to have with activities on the waterfront and the Front St. sides.

I'm thinking about something like Places des Arts in Montreal (not a great comparison, I know). It's mostly an overly large empty walkway with a museum on one side and stores on the other. But when it's time for the Jazz Festival it's filled up with people and is a great place for concerts. Now, that's in the center of downtown and the waterfront isn't but I don't necessarily think every space needs to be used all the time. But, then, I guess we could just use Independence Mall for more events if they Parks Service would allow it. Much easier to get to.